Tupac was shot and killed on the Vegas strip in 1996, but the police made no arrests for 27-years – why not?

The fourth season of my podcast – CrimeWaves – that I do with my students at the University of New Haven. We are taking a look at a number of famous cold cases. We start with the murder of Tupac Shakur. He was, at that time, one of the biggest recording stars in the world. He was gunned down just off the strip in Las Vegas in front of hundreds of witnesses. Yet, it took police over 27-years to arrest anyone for his murder.

The delay by law enforcement is even more extraordinary because a young investigative reporter – Cathy Scott – essentially, laid out the case of who had killed Tupac and why, in less than year. Even more extraordinary, Duane ‘Keefe D’ Davis, a famous Crips gang member from the Los Angeles area of Compton, brought out a book in 2019. In his book, he outlines what he claims happened to Tupac.

In the podcast, – transcripts below – my students and I interviewed Cathy Scott but we also read a few, selected excerpts from Davis’ book to show why Tupac was killed. Scott speaks openly about the racism of the Vegas police and their desire for the case just to go away and not disturb the tourist industry!

**

Reading from Compton Street Legend by Duane ‘Keffe D’ Davis

I pulled out the Glock that Zip had given me and tossed it in the backseat. Bubble Up did the driving Baby Lane and Freaky were riding in the back.
After our pit stop at the Liquor Barn we continued towards the carriage house. As we were driving the two vehicles that were with us got caught at the traffic light but we kept rolling. A few blocks down we were sitting at the light and who the fuck did we see? The Death Row caravan hit the corner with Tupac hanging out the window of a black luxury BMW waving to his fans. People on the street were screaming, “Tupac, Tupac! We love you Tupac!”

In unison all of our heads turned

**

Declan Hill:

Let’s just get right into this September 7th, 1996, streets of Vegas. What happens?

Cathy Scott:

Tupac [00:01:00] Shakur was driving in, in um, Suge Knight, his record producer of Death Row Records was driving him to a club club 6 62 where, uh, Tupac was going to be performing.

There were lots of flyers out, KCE, uh, KCET, which is a really popular, , black owned, uh, radio show in Las Vegas, was, you know, blasting it all day long, all week, actually, everybody knew that’s where Tupac was going, so he, he was headed down Flamingo, and, uh, got, was on the strip, headed off, uh, Flamingo, um, Suge Knight was driving, was stop and go, stop and go.

It’s fight night. You know, Bruce Seldon was fighting Mike Tyson that night. It was a knockout. Tupac had just gone. Everybody’s hyped up. Tupac was coming in and out of his, um, moon roof, sunroof and, um, a white Cadillac drove up and, and an arm stuck out and went rat-a-tat-tat like Bonnie and Clyde and just shot into the car door.

**

Declan Hill:

Tupac Shakur was one of the most popular recording artists of his time. He was killed in his absolute prime, and since then his popularity has grown.

Yet it took the Las Vegas police force 27 years to arrest anyone for the murder. And as you’ll hear, part of the delay was that they considered any attention on the media as bad for the business of Vegas, i. e. gambling and the tourists who fuel it. Now, the official slowness was even more extraordinary because a young investigative journalist, Had more or less solved the crime in less than a year.

She brought out a book, The Killing of Tupac Shakur, on the first anniversary of his death in September 1997, that correctly identifies the man who killed him and his motive for the murder. Yet her investigative work was ignored by Las Vegas law enforcement. And stranger still, the man who claimed to have organized the shooting, wrote his own book, Compton Street Legend, and published it in 2019.

And yet still no one was arrested for the murder. And it begs the question, what do you have to do in Vegas to get arrested? Now, [00:04:00] all that was true until last year when a new sheriff rode into Vegas and decided to clean up the town, starting with that famous decades old murder, the Vegas police arrested the former Compton gangster.

And his trial will be coming up in 2025. So today on crime waves, we interview that great journalist, Cathy Scott. We also excerpt her interview with selections from the book, Compton street legend by Keefe D. Davis. So you can hear in his own words, What he alleges happened that night. Now some of the people you’ll hear being mentioned are Suge Knight, the CEO of Death Row Records, that’s Tupac’s music company, Orlando Anderson, AKA Baby Lane, the alleged killer of Tupac.After those two got into a fight in the hallway of the MGM casino following a Mike Tyson boxing match.

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Reading from Compton Street Legend by Duane ‘Keffe D’ Davis

After the match we headed to the pre-arranged meeting place where we had waited for about 15 minutes. Little by little everybody started showing up except my nephew. Then some 118 East Coast Crips came and told us that they had saw some Death Row niggas jump on my nephew down by the casino. We came to find out later that the same dude from the Lakewood Mall that got his chain snatched was the was walking with Tupac when they had saw Baby Lane in the lobby of the MGM. We rushed up out the cafe and we went to the Baby Lane. We saw him inside the MGM minutes after they had jumped him

By the time we had got there Suge and their crew had left Baby Lane’s shoulder was a little messed up but other than that he was all right

When I asked him what happened he said, “Them Death Row niggas rushed me.”

**

Declan Hill

Now, at that time, Tupac is probably what the world’s biggest recording star.

Walk me through who he was at that time.

Cathy Scott:

He was really bigger than life on me, you know, he hadn’t yet. I don’t think he saw his full potential he was already speaking at universities and that sort of thing too, but he was on top of the game, as far as rap went he was on Suge Knight and death row records, the top seller.

And, um, so he was big and was doing a lot of, a lot of performance, uh, performances on stage and that sort of thing. But his records were selling like crazy and, um, he, it was, his new record was coming out the next day or within a day or two. So he was, uh, Makaveli it was called. And, um, so he was. Hyped up because [00:08:00] that that was, um, just dropping and but he had to go to the club 662 to perform because he was working off some, you know, it’s a bad boy too.

But anyway, he, um, so he had to, had to perform that night as community service and everybody knew he was going, it was all over the radio. So, so these guys were looking for him in the, in the black Cadillac cause they knew he was going.

So they just started heading down Flamingo, went to the club, came back, made a Uwe, got back on Flamingo and boom, they came across. Tupac, his windows were down, he was standing up and down, so they knew it was him. and the shooter just fired into the passenger seat.

**

Reading from Compton Street Legend by Duane ‘Keffe D’ Davis

We couldn’t let no record company studio gangsters do us like that. Had they lost their rapping ass fucking minds?!
On top of that Puffy had already talked to me about helping him out with the problem that he had been having with them niggas. It was a double whammy then. You add on top of the fact that we helped Suge with the money to get his record business going. And a nigga was gonna bite the hand that fed him?
Add insult to injury cause Suge still hadn’t paid Boss Man his money back. Got too big for his briches to stop taking Boss Man’s calls. Strike three homie!
Throw that out, Fuck that big homie! We know what them niggas gonna be…

**

Declan Hill:

So there’s a fight between Orlando Anderson and Tupac and his entourage. Tell us about that fight and why it was significant.

Cathy Scott:

Was Suge left with, they left with some of their homies, some, some low level rappers, you know, uh, everybody always calls that Tupac’s entourage, Suge’s entourage.

They left the MGM Grand, they left the, uh, arena where the fight with, where the boxing match was held. And then they headed toward the front door, which if you’re in one of those mega casinos, you’ll know that they’re, they take a long time to walk through. And, um, so as they were walking, um, , one of the guys with,, Tupac goes, Hey, says to Tupac, “Hey, that’s Lando. He’s the one who stole my bracelet at the, uh, shoe store!: in wherever. So there was a bounty to get a Death Row necklace, which was an electric chair. It was gold and it was an electric chair, you know, a, um, when you kill what’s a death row, literally a death row chair.

And solid gold big old honking chain, and they ripped it off of his neck and he goes, “Oh that’s Lando he’s the one who stole it from me.”

And so, Suge and Tupac just start pounding on. Orlando, Orlando was leaning against the, uh, against the elevator, right next to the elevator wall, waiting for his buddies from, you know, from Compton, South Central, uh, because they went in, he didn’t have a ticket, so he was waiting for them. It’s not like he was waiting, he didn’t, you look at the video in advance, he’s just bored, he’s just waiting for them to come in.

Not, not, not Tupac to come. So, you know, if not for Tupac’s buddy, seeing him, we wouldn’t be talking about this right now. But, uh, so they’d start pouncing and punching in.

Declan Hill:

These guys are prominent, if you can use that word, or at least, um, fully patched up members of street gangs.

Cathy Scott:

Yes.

Declan Hill

And if you beat one of those guys up, there’s going to be repercussions. You don’t get to do that in that, in that gang world. Because if you do, you know, there’s, there’s a lack of respect and there’s going to be blood on the streets.

Cathy Scott:

It’s all motive, uh, motive opportunity. [00:12:00] And, um, means, so you’ve got to get a gun. So Keefe D and Orlando, everybody was ticked off. And so their thing was, let’s go pay him back, we know where he’s going to be.

And so they, he bought a gun. Keefe D, who’s in jail right now, took, like you said, 27 years. He’s in jail for an accessory. He bought the gun. He handed it to Orlando in the car. So he goes out and buys it on the street or a gun shop. They’re open 24 hours in Vegas, wherever he got it from, and, um, a Glock. 45, I think it was, and then let’s go find, let’s go find Pac.

And so they start driving around and they find him. All it was, was retaliation. It’s as simple as that. There’s no conspiracy. It was you did this to me. As you said, you did this to me. I’m going to do this to you is payback. It’s all of us.

Declan Hill:

It’s none of that, um, you know, [00:13:00] East Coast rappers versus West Coast rappers and that whole thing that dominated popular media and which, I’ve got to say, sold a lot of records.

Cathy Scott:

Yes, it did. Yeah, it sold a lot of records, but, but, you know, I look at, I look at facts and evidence, and I don’t listen to the, you know, all the noise. I mean, I interviewed a ton of people, um, and then you, you know, I interviewed, uh, Reggie Wright, who owned the security company with them, and, you know, security, they were told they couldn’t carry guns.

because they didn’t, they didn’t apply in advance for a permit. You can’t, you can’t carry it in Vegas without a permit. And so they, they couldn’t carry. So the security, they were like security guards, like guys you see outside an AT& T store, you know?

**
Reading from Compton Street Legend by Duane ‘Keffe D’ Davis

There the motherfuckers go right there. If Pac had not been hanging out the window, we would have never seen him.
“Bust a U! Bust a U!”
Babe busted a U-turn.

As they sat in the traffic we slowly rode past the long line of luxury cars they had in the caravan looking into each one until we pulled up to the front vehicle and found who we were seeking for. Like two ramps locking horns, Suge and I looked dead in each other’s eyes. Our eyes locked. A terrified expression on Suge’s face read, “Damn Them niggas!”
No words exchanged. The time for talking had passed. Shit was about to go down.

**

Declan Hill:

Cathy, one of the things I, I made my students do was, was read, At the beginning of your book, uh, an excellent book written in extraordinarily short amount of time.

The, you know, the first edition comes out in September, 1997, one year after it, it’s come back in 2002, [00:15:00] came back in 2015. And I hope it gets reissued soon, um, with this recent trial because you basically lay out what happened within less than a year. you lay out essentially what was going on. , I’m persuaded by all this media nonsense about East coast, West coast rappers and stuff.

You just said, this is it. However, at the heart of your book is that the Las Vegas police department. screwed up again and again and again on the night of the scene on the investigation, all kinds of things. Could you just give us a short quick list of what they did wrong?

Cathy Scott:

Well, one of the big things they did wrong was you had all these witnesses.

I’m part of Tupac’s entourage. Those are like three cars a guy. And so they’re, Suge ends up on this strip. And so, so do they, they end up following him. Um, the guys who were in the entourage, you know, backup singers and some of the outlaws who backed up Tupac and these are kids, you know, [00:16:00] they’re 18, 19.

They’re young. And, um, and so what is, what did the Metro and I went down, right, I was down there about 2 AM. I got a call, and this happened about 11:30, I think. So I was at the scene while forensics were still on. So what did they do? All the cars that show up following Suge, you know, cause Suge was injured.

He’s bleeding. They, they, there’s another major, major thing that went wrong. So they, pulled them out of their cars and lay them face down on the ground, you know, and then they put them on, on the curbside and have them just sit apart from each other. So they come and talk to each other. That is not the way you treat a witness.

And, uh, you know, I hate to say it, but I think it’s the color of their skin. And then what Suge Knight did he got out of the car Tupac’s door wanted open. So a police officer helped him and the two of them got the door open. They should have waited. And then they had to squeeze Tupac out. He was shot in the chest

Declan Hill:

He’s bleeding to death and there’s no EMT.

Cathy Scott:

Well, the EMTs came, um, they came, but not before these guys had him out on the ground. So what did they, what damage was done to Tupac as they’re dragging and pulling his body down on the ground? Tupac was still talking at that time and in, in the car, the last thing he said to, uh, Well, in the ambulance, Suge rode with him because he was injured. You know, he said, “You’re a, you’re a hit man, you’re hit.”

And he goes, “Me? You’re the one who got hit.”

And that’s the last thing, that’s the last thing Tupac said. But I think they caused damage. But the police, then they expect the same people. Then they told me, “Well, no one will talk to you.” The lieutenant told me, the lieutenant of homicide.

Well, no one would talk to us. I said, “Why? Because you put them on the ground face down and then you expect them to talk to you?”

You know, they, they don’t, um, and then I was told, and then I got calls from, from the media in New York and all over the place, big magazines, writers, why, um, Why aren’t the police talking to us?

They won’t talk to us. Well, they would only talk to local media. And so they just, the one, uh, a captain at the time told me, he said, and you know, I just said it before that, um, that a big trial like this would be bad for tourism, you know, all these gang members and rah, hip hop people coming in, bad for tourism, so they just.

They, they honestly thought, the sergeant at one time told me, they honestly thought if they ignored it, it would go away, and that just fueled it, and it got worse, and then all the conspiracy theories come up. It was an easy case to solve. They never interviewed Orlando, I think it took him a few months and I think they asked him what kind of coffee he liked.

So funny they didn’t. It was just shabby all the way and it was intentional.

Declan Hill:

It was so shabby in terms of crime scene analysis here at the University of New Haven. We’re one of the best universities in the world because we have really good former police officers, forensics guys, um, all kinds of people teaching our students about crime scene analysis.

And, and so it boggled my mind that there was only one crime scene analyst on the scene. There was no securing of the scene. There were bike cops. There were two bike cops chasing the victim. These guys in their BMW and their little bicycles down the street. It just seemed like mall cops, you know, being called into a shooting, like guys, you know, go arrest someone for having a lollipop, but just leave the big people stuff away.

Cathy Scott:

Coincidentally, [00:20:00] two bike cops were up on the fourth or fifth floor of the parking garage right there next to the hotel was on the other side and they were literally vertical with it. And so they heard the pop pop pop, and they started running they had their bike their bicycles and they started running.

So, they both. Their shooting happened there. They heard the shooting. They left the scene. One bike cop left to follow Suge to the strip, but the other one went with him. One of them should have stayed, stayed at the scene. You know, I mean, they left, and then Suge left too, but that’s the scene of the crime and you don’t leave it.

Declan Hill:

These are bike cops! Think of all, you think of all the bystanders who just. Walked away, not not the guys in the entourage, not the guys in the cars, but just it was right in the middle of strip right in the middle of a Saturday night fight night and hundreds of people would watch that. And the opportunity just to secure them at that moment.

Yeah, memories are still fresh was all gone.

Cathy Scott:

Yeah, they’re not half a block off the strip but they they Yeah, they needed to secure the crime and they didn’t. So how many cars went by? How many, you know, where were the shells of the bullets they should have secured and yellow tape. And I mean, those guys, their turn, bicycle cops aren’t security cops.

They’re, they’re trained just like regular cops. It’s kind of a first gig. It’s an entry level. But, and I interviewed one of the bike cops, not one of the cops was there, but the bike cop who was at the scene of where Suge ended up. So then you end up. Crime scenes, they should have secured in they didn’t.

, you know, they’ve got a gang. They’ve got a gang team that they didn’t homicide did not bring in the gang teams.

You know, they’re all over. Okay. No, the gang, detectives were not a part of the investigation, even though it was gang related.

Declan Hill:

Hang on. I’m just about to fall off my chair again. You saying there was actually at that time, there was [00:22:00] actually a gang team in Vegas that they didn’t bring in?!

Cathy Scott:

They did not bring in the gang unit. Now maybe they did. With this investigation, the one that’s actually got, you know, Keefe . in jail and charged with murder, they may have brought them back in. They did not bring in the gang cops. They felt a little left out. I interviewed some of them, but, um, yeah.

Well, if you don’t want to solve a crime, you don’t bring in people like that…

**
Reading from Compton Street Legend by Duane ‘Keffe D’ Davis

The next few seconds all happened so quickly. Shit was on!

Tupac made an erratic move and began to reach down beneath the seat. It was the first and only time in my life that I could relate to the police command, “Keep your hands where I can see them.”

Instead Pac pulled out the strap. And that’s when the fireworks started.

One of my guys from the backseat grabbed the Glock and started busting back. The first shot skinned Suge in the head, thought the motherfucker was dead. I heard stories that Suge supposedly used Tupac as a shield when the bullets started flying but that’s some bullshit! Suge was already wounded. It was the first one that got touched us.

**

Declan Hill:

And that quote, justice was, was happening quickly. Here’s the thing. I fell off my chair many times reading your book. It’s absolutely superb. And I strongly recommend our listeners and viewers to get Cathy’s book. Cathy’s written a number of them, but they’re all exceptional. And, but this work that you’ve done is really, really extraordinary.

But one of the things that stunned me in your research was you were saying that there were members of the Las Vegas police department that were actually moonlighting that night as quote bodyguards for Tupac and his and his group. Tell us about that.

Cathy Scott:

I think there were eight of them. Um, that’s, uh, I’d have to refresh my memory, but they’re, um, you know, big bodybuilders and that sort of thing.

So they’re allowed police, police officers around the nation do it, you know, around the U S do it. And, um, you [00:24:00] know, it’s to make more money. It’s a side gig. So they got hired out as security guards. Um, But they were told, as I said earlier, nobody was allowed to carry that night. And, um, and security guards are off.

If they hire out as a security guard, they’re off duty. So they’re more show than anything else, but they were with them and they were in a car behind and they, and I think there were a couple of them waiting for them at Club 662 where Tupac was performing, but there were some with them in the entourage.

They had gone, left the MGM to go, you know, change their clothes, hang out, and then, and then head to club 662. And after they did all that, then they, so those guards were not police officers, but they, they could have performed as police officers, but they didn’t, they, there was no from them at all.

Declan Hill:

Yeah. And here’s my problem, Cathy.

I mean, that is a walking, talking conflict of interest.

Cathy Scott:

Oh yeah.

Declan Hill:

Particularly, Anderson, particularly when you have a fight a few hours earlier between Orlando Anderson, uh, Southside Crip and, uh, the guys around Tupac. It is some controversy whether he was actually a named member of the Bloods or not, but let’s say he was not.

Cathy Scott:

No, no. Tupac never jumped into a game. Never.

Declan Hill:

Right. So, but there’s certainly a fight there.

Cathy Scott:

The cops who are, quote, off duty are somewhat around this. Yet this hugely significant fight. Three hours before he’s killed is, is ignored by the Vegas police for seven, eight days. Um, they don’t use these guys to bring people in to say, Hey, you know, I was in the car with you.

You know, can we work together, some kind of entourage that it just seems like they wanted this whole issue to go away. That being the Vegas police.

Well, I would tell you the Keystone cops, there [00:26:00] was just one mistake after another another. And yeah, the cops who were off duty, but it called it in. And because there wasn’t and there was a cop that actually took, you know, took his statement, but didn’t write it down, didn’t even do a report.

So there was no record of it other than, um, video being leaked to the media from the MGM Grand. Otherwise we would have never known about all of that, you know, that there it is in public with the date and everything. So we, it was a matter of piecing together what people were leaking to us rather than what we were getting from the police because the police kept telling me, oh, it was, you know, unrelated and just trying to make it go away.

It was almost, it was almost comical, which is why I wrote the book. I wrote the book. Because the police were not solving it in the standard way that they typically do. It just looked weird. And, and so that’s why I, um, you know, I was there [00:27:00] in Vegas and, um, and I was a police reporter and I, I’d gone to the scene of the crime.

And so I, uh, I was at the hospital when Tupac died. It was a somber, somber moment, but and that changed everything when it became a homicide instead of an attempted homicide. But it didn’t, um, seven days, six days later, he died. It did not, um, prompt the police to speed it up or, you know, do more. It just, uh, they just wanted it to go away.

But I didn’t, I kept it out there.

**
Reading from Compton Street Legend by Duane ‘Keffe D’ Davis

As the rounds continued flying I dug down so that I wouldn’t get hit. When the shooting stopped we boned out. And a white Chrysler Seabreeze full of young ladies was following us. Their window quickly got shot out. So they stopped. Interesting thing to me was with all them rough-ass niggas they were supposed to have with them [00:28:00] none of them did a damn thing and tried to come after us.

**

Declan Hill:

Spell this out for myself and the listeners. What is the difference between the Compton police, and for anyone who’s a non American Compton is an area of Los Angeles, notorious for gang warfare. So talk us through the difference between the Compton cops and the Las Vegas and Henderson police forces.

Cathy Scott:

I think part of it. When Compton PD as you said, because these guys live in Compton, so they knew who they were they knew all the players, they were reaching out I interviewed them the length, they became friends, and one of them has since died one of the cops but they.

They immediately contacted the police and then they, they’re the ones who ID’d Orlando for them because the security and the police officer at the MGM Grand didn’t even take the police report. So he didn’t know who he was talking to. And it was the Compton PD who really said, Hey, listen, we’ll help you.

And they’re like, we don’t need any help. And they, and they were perplexed.

They offered. Let us help you. And they said, No, we’re fine. And so that’s when they picked up the phone and called me and said, What is going on? All these people.

Declan Hill:

Sorry, the Compton cops. In California, hundreds of miles away, but these are the gangbangers. These are the guys they know must be involved in this crime very, very early on hours, days after the things are volunteering information to Vegas police and the Vegas police are turning them down!?

Cathy Scott:

It turned because they knew all of them. They knew they knew Orlando Anderson, Lando. They knew him. You know, Orlando got dead himself about 18 months later in an unrelated, uh, shooting at a, at a, um, at a car wash, but I investigated that as well, just to make sure that that wasn’t like a cover up, you know, and it was retaliation.

It wasn’t retaliation. It was just, you did this to me, you shoot me, I’m going to shoot you, just a car to car shooting in the parking lot of a car wash over money It was over money.

Declan Hill:

But there was in the 10 days after the shooting of Tupac blood on the streets in Compton, at least 12 blood bath. Tell us about that, please.

Cathy Scott:

Well, that was. So, so Suge Knight’s a blood, the, the Piru gang. Um, and, and then Orlando Anderson’s a Crip, so you’ve got the South, South Central Crips and you’ve got the Bloods and they all live in the same neighborhoods, you know, and so, or nearby, and there’s territory. And so, Suge Knight ordered it, and, and it was so, so clear out Compton, so they went, they did get one of the guys who was in the car when Tupac was, because there were four people in the car, and, um, They got him, so he got dead, and then, uh, and that was a bloodbath of about four days, I think, and, and, and those Compton [00:31:00] cops were involved in trying to solve everything, a little boy got shot because they were doing drive bys, that’s what they do, drive bys, they were doing drive bys over in retaliation for Tupac’s shooting, so if justice, the real justice doesn’t take place, then there is justice on the streets sometimes, and that’s what, uh, they were trying to do.

Somehow Suge instead of driving straight to the Memorial Hospital He did some studio gangsta shit He made a U turn back to the Las Vegas Strip Confident that the death row crew and the police would be looking for the car that we were driving in We abandoned the car and got away from it quickly

It’s some shit you would see on the Twilight Zone We scurried to get to the other side of the Las Vegas Boulevard When we got to the middle of the divider the light changed to red And we had to wait on the median as we were standing on the median waiting to cross Las Vegas Boulevard two ambulances passed by right in front of where we were standing with the sirens blaring.

Declan Hill:

You, you kept it out there because you did Over 200 interviews, [00:32:00] uh, you continue those interviews long term, you built relationships, you went to LA, you went to Compton, you went all around, uh, all this area, all this world, all this culture, getting it. And again, as I said, I was shocked to see that within less than a year, you had essentially solved the case.

What’s your feelings now, all these years later, 27 years later, when you see somebody finally being arrested?

Cathy Scott:

Oh, I’m, I’m, you know, I applaud them, you know, and the new one coming in and some, some people, I got a lot of calls. I was on TV and stuff. All the TV programs wanted to know, are you surprised by the outcome?

And I’m like, no, because I knew he was the one who bought the gun. I knew he was involved. He’s Orlando’s uncle. You know, he was a part of it. He said, let’s go get him. Um, so yeah, he’s charged with murder. So I was just pleased that finally, but it took a new, new sheriff in town to, to do it and new attitude.

And guys who weren’t even probably on the force back then are now new to it. And so it’s a homicide guys. All those guys are probably retired by now. I know a lot of them are. So it’s a, it’s, it’s new blood coming in and, and we, and reexamining it. But, one of the reasons is because Keefe D. – Keefe Davis and all his, um, infinite wisdom, as the guy who provided the gun, moved from Compton to Henderson, Nevada, and, and so they didn’t have to extradite him, which they would have had to go through the Las Vegas police, or I’m sorry, the, um, L. A. police. It’s a contents no longer a police department, by the way, it, it folded.

I had to go through the LAPD, the court system in LA to extradite. This was easy. He so they just put surveillance on him almost as soon as he moved there.

They got him the first time they arrested him because they arrested him twice. But the first time they arrested him, they got him walking his dog. So he wasn’t at all, you know, thinking, “Oh, I’m going to get caught because I’m back in town.”

Dude, you made it easy for them!

Declan Hill:

Well, Cathy, he made it even more easy for them. He wrote a book where he wrote, you know, that’s the thing that’s playing, that’s playing through our, our interview, our interview,

So it even begs the question, “Look, mate, You put out a book in 2019 saying, I drove the car and I was their accessory to this homicide.” What do you have to do in Las Vegas to get arrested?

Cathy Scott:

Yeah, exactly. But you have to move there.

Declan Hill:

Exactly. You have to move there, write a book about it, and then wait five years before the police come around to arrest you.

Cathy Scott:

Yeah, the problem with him was that he didn’t realize that there is no statute of limitations on homicide. I think he thought the case was so old it [00:35:00] was dead. There’s no statute. There’s a statute on theft. There’s statute on every crime. There is no statute. It is until the end of time. And so it didn’t matter how much time went by.

So he basically just handed himself over to the police by moving there. And then they, they read the book and they’re like, let’s go get him.

The first ambulance passed by with Tupac in it and the medics working frantically to provide medical attention The second one not too far behind had Sugar in it

There we were looking right into the ambulances transporting Tupac and Suge to the Memorial Hospital Everyone knows the rest of the story Six days later Tupac died as a result from his injuries

Declan Hill:

At, at that point, uh, Tupac is, um, you know, really one of the major recording stars. So is a young Justin Timberlake. He’s gone now to be, you know, the, I arguably the Frank Sinatra of his generation, just this, this icon. Do you think it would have been different if [00:36:00] Justin Timberlake had been gunned down on the streets of Vegas?

Cathy Scott:

Absolutely.

Declan Hill:

Why?

Cathy Scott:

Because of his skin color, I think, and no gang affiliation. So, because, I mean, you’ve got, um, I was told this. by a higher up in the police department. You bring in a bunch of black gang members, and it’s bad for tourism. And they just wanted, they didn’t want people to know that there were any gang related things going on.

And they literally thought it was a news story that would die after a few days. And that’s, that’s what I, I learned over the years covering this I learned it early on, you know, but permeated through and the difference in is you get a new guy in who’s heading it and the sheriff too he didn’t he didn’t he wouldn’t talk to reporters at the time the sheriff back then sheriff keller and uh but this guy’s an open book This new guy, cause he, he just solved the biggest crime.

And, [00:37:00] and I think ever in Las Vegas, when you say it’s one of the big, I mean, the mob,

Declan Hill:

Cathy. It’s an honor to talk to you. It’s an honor to be able to teach some of your methods, um, in my, in my classes. Um, can you please tell your listeners some of the books that you’re working on now? Because this one that, that kicked off your career as an author, you’d be in a journalist for a long time before that, but, but you’ve had a number of these big books.

What are you working on at the moment?

Cathy Scott:

Working on the, uh, the, um, Anne Rule, , Queen of True Crime, , biography of Anne Rule. She was, um, uh, she did 33 books, I think, 34, and she wrote the Ted Bundy book, Serial Killer, The Stranger Beside Me, and, uh, when she was a New York Times bestseller. I learned a lot about her, which prompted me.

I got to know her three years before she died. She died in 2015. so I got to know her in I was just in Seattle with a film crew. Um, and, uh, that’s where she lived. And then, [00:38:00] uh,

Declan Hill:

And when is that book coming out next Christmas?

Cathy Scott:

That’ll be on next year. Cause I’m, I’ve been working on it for five years.

Cause it is extensive. And then I got sick in between. I’m fine now, but I took a break all year, but, um, And Murder of a Mafia Daughter about Susan Burnham being murdered by her best friend Robert Durst at Big Trial in L. A. I’ve done three editions of that book, too. And finally, they got him. And that took years, too.

That was the LAPD. And then, um, Biggie Smalls died six months after Tupac, and that became my second book. And so those are really my big three, uh, I did a book, Death in the Desert, about Ted Binion. He was a son of Binion’s horseshoe owner, and, um, his, it was called a murder, it wasn’t. I sat through that trial, he died from a drug overdose, self induced.

And that finally came out in the second trial. So I sat through two of those trials, no longer in Vegas. I’m in San Diego where I was born and raised. I live up in the mountains and but I can research and go anywhere to write books.

Declan Hill:

And Cathyscott. com. That’s your, that’s your website.

Cathy Scott:

You’ll find me on Facebook. You friend me, I’ll friend you back.

Declan Hill:

Awesome.

Cathy Scott:

Uh, yeah, any of those things. So thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Declan Hill:

No, it’s a great, great honor before you go. The most popular, section of the podcast is where the boring professor gets off and the students get to ask questions. So Akin , you’ve done amazing research over the last few months.

You brought this story to me. You’ve read it. Both of these books and then you, you made sure that I read them. Um, do you have questions for Cathy?

Akin Akinwunmi:

Yes, I do. Uh, thank you very much, Cathy, for your time. I appreciate all the work you’ve done on the Tupac case and I found it really interesting. Well, for a question, my question, is, I mean, with all the lack of information at [00:40:00] the time and all the lack of witnesses and all the deaths and the record labels and the companies would you say that there was a larger, I would say, plot or conspiracy at the end of the day that involved maybe the record labels?

I know there’s a lot of talk out there about Bad Boy records and, and Death Row records. Uh, would you say that there, the, it would transcended more from gang on gang violence to something bigger?

Cathy Scott:

Well, I think that, I mean, it was, it was bad for business for them too, and I think with Suge Knight. You know, he, um, he wouldn’t help police at all, and it’s just kind of a street gang mentality when you’ve got guys who come from the street and end up running a record company. I mean, he ended up killing somebody and he’s in, prison for it.

He’s also, um, it’s come out that he was responsible and ordered, Uh, Tupac Shakur, or, um, Biggie Smalls [00:41:00] murder. So, you know, you do this to me we do this to you this does retaliation, but I think I think the gang mentality but I think with, I think with Sean Combs who he’s really transformed, because Sean Combs.

P. Diddy. used to be, um, well respected in the industry. Everybody said he wasn’t a thug like Suge Knight came from the streets, you know, and look at, look at now the guy had a sex ring allegedly and, and look at, you know, he’s never going to see daylight again. Outside of prison. And, so maybe they’re, you know, he was scared afterward.

A lot of rappers were scared afterward, especially when Tupac when Biggie was killed six months later. I think it’s sobered everybody up but they didn’t seem to officially want to sign, solve the crime either, and wanted it to go away, just as much, but I think it’s a little bit of the gang mentality from them too, but it’s like “Nunya” – You know, none of your business and they didn’t want the police, they didn’t want to be involved with the police.

So that’s why they didn’t want the crime solved. They already knew who did it anyway.

Akin Akinwunmi:

Okay. Thank you very much for your time. And thank you for answering the question.

Cathy Scott:

You’re welcome.

Declan Hill:

Cathy, thank you very much.

Really, really appreciate it.

Cathy Scott:

Thank you. Thanks so much.

**
Reading from Compton Street Legend by Duane ‘Keffe D’ Davis

The moral of the story – real gangsters nothing to be fucked with.
It’s Ruthless way of life. One that I’ve lived majority of my life. Some gangster rappers have glamorized and glorified their life – like it’s cool. It’s something to strive for. They have a lot of people’s minds twisted.
The truth of the matter is gang-banging, acting like a thug, ain’t no joke. For us Vegas was another day at the office. It may sound cold-hearted but from a street perspective the killings of Tupac Shakur and Biggie Smalls would be considered nothing more than collateral damage.

**

Declan Hill:

It’s Declan here. Thank you for listening to this episode of CrimeWaves, the killing of Tupac. What do you have to do in Vegas to get arrested? It was produced by my brilliant students, Akin Akinwunmi and Angie Paulus. And the reading from Compton Street legend by Keefe D Davis was by Jamari Ellerbe-Cundiff.

So please, if you enjoyed this episode, do take some time to like subscribe, rate review, or just comment on the show. Um, because we’re the little guys trying to punch above our weight by doing super interesting ethical, independent, and nonpartisan true crime cases.

No spin, no nonsense. And we’re up against some pretty powerful corporate media podcasts with massive budgets who sometimes frankly lie to you, their listeners.

We don’t do that. So please help raise our profile. Thank you again for listening. And we’ll see you again for the next episode of CrimeWaves.